“Between steel and ‘meat,’ every time steel will win.”
A Conversation on the Present Nature of Battle With One of Ukraine’s Experienced Defenders
Honor Phillips spoke with a seasoned Ukrainian soldier on the ground about the realities facing Ukrainian troops as the war enters a crucial phase in 2024
A Ukrainian serviceman walks next to a residential building heavily damaged by Russian strikes in the front line town of Avdiivka. Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty
Last Sunday, the 24th, was the two year anniversary of the Russian full scale invasion of Ukraine. The war has shaken world alliances, international treaties, and upended the perceived peace in Europe that came from the collapse of the Soviet Empire. Tens of thousands have been killed, millions have become refugees, and a line has been drawn between those who would up-hold the post WWII rules based international order, and those who operate only upon expediency and the will of the strongest. The sheep skin has been thrown off, and the wolf is unashamed and uncowed.
Europe has had a slow but virtually unified recognition of the new world we are operating in, Great Britain has led with a rallying cry from the first days of the invasion. But it seems as if America is still twiddling her thumbs hoping the war and the new axis of power, Russia, China, Iran, and North Korea will somehow just go away. This has been on display in the unorganized feeble support from the Biden administration as well as the misguided dereliction from Republican lawmakers in barring aid and weapons to Ukraine as they quite literally fight for their lives.
Charles III, King of England greeting Ukrainian soldiers being trained during Operation Interflex, the program that delivered basic combat training to Ukrainian recruits. UK, 2023 Image/The Royal Household
As the Ukraine aid package hangs in the balance in Washington, Ukrainians are facing bleak realities. Russia is taking advantage of the shortages in Ukrainian ammunition, armor, and air support by pressing Ukrainian positions with onslots of brute force, relying on quantity of fire power and infantry rather than quality.
A token battlefield victory is proving to be more valuable to Moscow than the tens of thousands of Russian casualties that it costs to overrun Ukrainian territory. Ukraine’s former top general, Valerii Zaluzhnyi has even said that one of his strategies was to make the proportionate losses of Russian troops untenable to their gains, only to discover that Moscow cares little for the amount of battlefield casualties they take.
A Soldier’s Reality
This puts Ukrainian forces in an impossible position: they kill attacking Russian troops until they are out of ammunition, then they have to withdraw or regroup until resupplied. It took an estimated 16,000 Russian deaths before Ukrainian forces were ordered to withdraw from the town of Avdiivka which had been besieged by Russian forces for months.
Ukrainians soldiers preparing to head to the frontline near Avdiivka, Ukraine. Image/NY Times
I first met Dmytro on an expedition to the ruins left by Russian invaders in Bucha and Irpin. A ten year veteran of the war with Russia and a native of Donbas, he shared his perspective on the hard realities facing Ukrainian troops, and the unique challenges of this moment:
“When the fight is between steel and bodies, or ‘meat,’ every time steel will win.”
“You can’t get victory in the war with praying or good wishes, just steel, armor, artillery, and a lot of professional soldiers and good planning.”
“But now we don’t have enough artillery or artillery resources. And I am afraid we have a big chance of losing our freedom.”
“It’s very upsetting information, but it’s true: without enough help from the U.S.A., without a lot of support… not just a little bit, not just a few Bradleys and a few pieces of armor, that is only good for defending territory, but not to win a war.”
“Russia is a very powerful war machine now, and on the battlefield, that is the deciding factor. A lot of artillery, not just high quality but a lot of firepower… as well as very motivated infantry, and FPV drones. This makes real results on the battle field.”
“Defending is very hard now. We lose every day a part of our land. Our soldiers morale is not as high as it was two years ago. They have strong characters, but when the fight is between steel and bodies, or ‘meat,’ every time steel will win.”
The Consequences of Defeat
Dmytro also spoke about the apparent lack of understanding in the West of the gravity of the war Russia is waging and the consequences to Ukrainians if they lose this fight:
“I am afraid that If Ukraine is beaten, it will happen again. We will lose our freedom, and it will be genocide of Ukrainians - everyone that had service in the army or who fought against Russia, to the families of soldiers who were killed on the battle field and everyone who identifies himself as Ukrainian - it will be a genocide or a deportation to somewhere like Siberia or other prisons and Gulags.”
This prospect of what could happen if a Ukrainian defeat were to take place is not far fetched. Deportation of ethnic groups is a well tested Russian method of domination, from the days of Stalin to the nineteen thousand plus Ukrainian children who have been shipped to Russia for reeducation by the Kremlin since this war began.
Targeting for torture or execution of those Ukrainian citizens who possess documents or who have personal histories that stand in opposition to the Russian state narrative is also a very real threat. Stories have come from all over Ukraine since the full scale invasion of summary executions of Ukrainians who have had identification or tattoos affiliated with service in the Ukrainian military or even the Ukrainian national coat of arms. Symbols of ethnic or national identity have been untolerated by occupying Russian forces.
Inside one of the many “torture chambers” used by Russian forces in the Ukrainian city of Kherson. On the wall is the Russian pro-war symbol “Z” underneath the word “Russia.” Image/Pierre Crom/Getty Images
Where are the Churchill’s in the West?
In our conversation, Dmytro explained the frustration many Ukrainian soldiers feel resulting from the lack of clarity in the West in its opposition to Russia’s war.
“They [the West] have no Churchills or Roosevelts now, and they think that everything can be settled by making agreements or partnerships.”
“In World War Two, they thought that if they gave Czechoslovakia and Poland to Hitler, that he would say, ‘It is enough’… but it was not enough. Politicians are doing the same thing again, only now they are even more foolish.”
“It is the 21st century. It is not the time for wars for land; now is the time for technological advancements, to send expeditions to space, and to make new horizons, but not for Russia… Russia is like a country from the past, and it gives only darkness.”
“…It is very absurd to me that dictators and countries with totalitarianism are more powerful than countries with democracy.”
Indecision and Inaction are Not Strategies
We are now entering the third year of war in Europe. The months ahead might very well be some of the most difficult of the entire full scale invasion, but the outcome is not set in stone. Whether through action or inaction, we in the West will help to decide what the future of Europe and the world will look like. Will we convince ourselves that there is nothing we can do, that “stalemate“ is inevitable, that we are powerless in the face of dictators, or will we act on the principles of freedom which are the cornerstone of the Western tradition.
The choice is ours.
Honor Phillips is the Executive Producer of The Ukraine Story Podcast, and a contributor to the field reports and documentary work of Ukraine Story. He recently returned from a documentary film shoot in Ukraine.
